John Barrand – Modernizing Performance Management in the Public Sector

Connect with John:

• • 

Connect with David:

• • 

• david.turetsky@salary.com

Connect with Dwight:

• • 

• dwight.brown@salary.com

Podcast Manager, Karissa Harris:

• HRDataLabs@salary.com

 

Production by Affogato Media

Resources:

• Salary.com Consulting practice
• HR Data Labs Season 9 Episode 9
• HR Data Labs Season 9 Episode 7

• “[The public sector] is seeing [employee satisfaction] upticks that are outpacing private sector organizations . . . people are hearing that if you’re a good performer, there’s a place for you [in the public sector].”

Announcer: 0:01

The world of business is more complex than ever. The world of human resources and compensation is also getting more complex. Welcome to the HR Data Labs podcast, your direct source for the latest trends from experts inside and outside the world of human resources. Listen as we explore the impact that compensation strategy, data and people analytics can have on your organization. This podcast is sponsored by Salary.com, your source for data technology and consulting for compensation and beyond. Now here are your hosts, David Turetsky and Dwight Brown.

 

Dwight Brown: 0:37

David Turetsky, I am wonderful this morning. How

 

David Turetsky: 0:37

Wow, I will not reach that bar. I'm okay. Hello and welcome to the HR Day Labs podcast. I'm your host, David Turetsky alongside my trusted you doing?

 

Dwight Brown: 0:41

We'll get you to that bar by the end. co-host, friend, BFF from Salary.com, Dwight Brown. Dwight, how are you?

 

David Turetsky: 0:56

Well, we will, because today we have with us a very special guest. John Barrand, how are you?

 

John Barrand: 1:01

I'm gonna go with happy! So,

 

David Turetsky: 1:04

oh, well, there you go.

 

Dwight Brown: 1:04

That's good. Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 1:06

John, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and the reason why we're so excited to talk to you today?

 

John Barrand: 1:12

Sure, I think the main reason is because you've got an avid listener who who's excited to spend some time with what I'd call local HR celebrities. So yeah, correct flattery, flattery to start the time together. So I'm one thing I love about my introduction is I'm a full fledged HR practitioner.

 

David Turetsky: 1:34

Excellent

 

John Barrand: 1:34

And currently serving as the chief HR officer for the state of Utah, the executive branch cabinet member for Governor Cox. We've got a unique two weeks coming up. I know this is time dated, october 24 but national election and Governor going for his his re election as well. It's been wonderful. I moved to Utah seven years ago. Don't have any family here. Don't really have a real reason to stick around. Have since settled in, married a British woman who's itching to get back to the UK as soon as possible, but we're having a lot of fun serving Utah. It's a wonderful place to spend some time. I like the West, western part of the United States, and we're we're just enjoying our time together.

 

David Turetsky: 2:16

That's awesome. I would, I would add the great State of Utah, which has so many beautiful and wonderful things, and now has a brand new hockey team, yeah, which we're very proud.

 

Dwight Brown: 2:27

Oh didn't realize that!

 

David Turetsky: 2:28

yeah,

 

Dwight Brown: 2:29

really?

 

David Turetsky: 2:29

yeah, your state, Dwight lost a hockey team, and Utah gained a hockey team!

 

John Barrand: 2:35

And I can give some professional background. I spent a decade in Chicago coming up through through the HR function, and I was there for the three Stanley Cups. So I do have a favorite goalie, and David, it's not you.

 

Dwight Brown: 2:50

Oh,

 

John Barrand: 2:53

Corey Crawford's my guy forever. But it's fun. It's fun to fall in love with a new hockey team. And the energy here is is unparalleled. We're just, we're just loving having it, and it's really great to see Salt Lake Valley and the state of Utah warm up to the ice.

 

David Turetsky: 3:10

Absolutely. And you know, that's one of the beautiful things about hockey, is it creates community, and it is a, and you wouldn't think so, because it's like a very violent, very fast, very, you know, just just, there's a lot of collisions. It's a very, it's a very fast sport. But what it does do is it brings kids into the conversation. It brings the community together. And we've seen this happen in lots of cities that have adopted NHL teams. And I am just so proud of Utah for taking the team and for for actually embracing it. That's wonderful.

 

John Barrand: 3:45

It teaches a lot about about sacrifice. I'm sure I understand. You still play. You probably have what, 10 o'clock ice time, right? Like it's not, it's not convenient. So there's a lot of sacrifice that goes into building, particularly when there's such limited ice rinks in the communities. So it does teach a lot. And it's, it's, it's been fun. It's been fun to watch and talk about locally. So we're enjoying our time for sure.

 

David Turetsky: 4:08

Well, so John, before we get into our topic, which is going to be really cool, what's one fun thing that no one knows about John Barrand?

 

John Barrand: 4:15

There's people that know this, but it will make me blush. So the I'll Quentin Tarantino it: I'll tell you the ending, and then maybe back into some of the story here.

 

David Turetsky: 4:24

okay

 

John Barrand: 4:25

I was on the same stages, using the same vocal support, practicing my choreography in the same places as a small boy band in the same summer known as NSYNC.

 

David Turetsky: 4:36

Wow.

 

Dwight Brown: 4:36

Oh yeah!

 

John Barrand: 4:37

So they started out of Orlando in 1995 they had just released an album in Germany, and I was working at Disney World as a singer, entertainer, and

 

David Turetsky: 4:47

Oh cool!

 

John Barrand: 4:47

had a boy band myself. That was nothing,

 

David Turetsky: 4:48

that's great! nothing, I want to be very clear. We, we were in Disney World, and we would, we would do the same stages as them a couple

 

John Barrand: 4:56

as a white elephant. days later and whatnot, because they came up, some of them came up through through Disney. So usually some of my, I've scrubbed the internet and all physical CDs like but every now and again, a white elephant gift amongst my my group of friends pops in, and suddenly it's a CD of my boy band from 1995

 

Dwight Brown: 5:18

That's cool!

 

John Barrand: 5:20

So there's still a few out there, but again, I was not as talented. But it's always fun to brag about and say, Hey, I was maybe two steps away from being being the next. But of course, I wasn't, that's

 

David Turetsky: 5:34

So what was the name of your band?

 

John Barrand: 5:36

We were called Cloud Nine.

 

David Turetsky: 5:37

Okay

 

John Barrand: 5:38

And we, we really focused on, of course, I was the base man, our and, and we, we really focused on 50 60 medleys. So we performed in the country of America and Epcot, yeah, right, they have those walking performers. And then we would do stage performances about three nights a week. And it was, it was a great time for us

 

David Turetsky: 5:56

That's awesome, right?

 

Dwight Brown: 5:58

That's cool.

 

John Barrand: 5:59

Yeah. It was fun. People assume that the talent has come with me. But no, that was all engineering through

 

David Turetsky: 6:05

so you're saying was all heuristics from the from, from all the technology that you used, or?

 

John Barrand: 6:13

I started singing by trading I would mow my vocal coach's yard because I didn't have, like, I was like, Hey, I don't think I like this enough to pay for it, but, like, right? And then it just became a thing, and so, and I was definitely the weak link. The people that I sang with, the group that I sang with, all three of them, went to university on scholarship. And I was, I guess. I was like, I guess I'll just go to college. Like, there was no offers coming my way. I was,

 

David Turetsky: 6:42

Well I think you're being hard on yourself, but

 

Dwight Brown: 6:44

So do you still perform?

 

John Barrand: 6:46

Absolutely not. There isn't a bone of my body that makes you want to do that!

 

David Turetsky: 6:50

I was gonna say at the end, we're gonna ask you to sing a little medley

 

Dwight Brown: 6:55

or dance. Did you dance along with it?

 

John Barrand: 6:58

Yes

 

Dwight Brown: 6:58

Like the boy bands?

 

John Barrand: 6:59

Yes, we we had it all. There you go. David, we had a hired choreographer. It was a really silly time and again, I can blush pretty quick thinking about it, but like, it definitely helped with securing dates. It definitely helped

 

David Turetsky: 7:13

Sure

 

John Barrand: 7:13

yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. I had a lot of fun for a few years.

 

David Turetsky: 7:17

So we have a celebrity in many ways on our podcast today.

 

John Barrand: 7:21

Be careful, David, be careful

 

David Turetsky: 7:23

Head of HR for the state of Utah, but he's also a singer and dancer from Cloud Nine!

 

Dwight Brown: 7:28

Now I'm going to be combing the internet!

 

John Barrand: 7:30

They're out there somewhere, I guarantee it.

 

David Turetsky: 7:30

Exactly. We're gonna have to find little nuggets of brilliance from John. We're gonna send it off to America's Got Talent. So you'll be on there very shortly.

 

John Barrand: 7:42

Let's go.

 

David Turetsky: 7:45

Today's topic is one near and dear to a lot of our hearts, and it's modernizing performance management, but with the twist in the public sector. And we, we here at salary.com have a lot of clients in the public sector, but we don't spend a lot of time talking about the public sector on the podcast, which is definitely going to change today, but we also talk a lot about how to improve HR processes, so I'm really excited to get going to talk about this. So our first question, John is, what's the big difference in your experience between the public and private Human

 

John Barrand: 8:25

Yeah, good question for for additional Resources world? context, because I know my intro, I stayed more personal. I did come up through the through the private sector ranks. I, after getting my MBA, I started Procter and Gamble, and I'll likely refer to that through some of this conversation, conglomerate that had 25 $1 billion Companies, right? Brands in it in 2006, right? I got my start in HR, in opening restaurants through undergrad, and through undergrad, most people take a serving job, right? I was done singing and dancing, and then I became a server to earn some date money, right? Yeah, good enough at that that they promoted me to a bartender, and then you become a bartender, and then they promote you to like, Hey, you want to be a manager, right? You the skill set often doesn't equate. I said, No, I don't want to be a manager, but I can help with something. And I ended up opening up 21 restaurants in about 18 months with an organization out of Austin, Texas, called Fired Up, Incorporated. And so I, it was a lot of fun. I hired 3000 people by the time I went to grad school, of course, that lended into private sector. So restaurant scene, Proctor and Gamble, private equity in Chicago. All this is, is private based, right? Capitalism, pure capitalism. Let's make some money, right?

 

David Turetsky: 9:37

right Right

 

John Barrand: 9:37

And then you come into the public sector, of and then the other the other stakeholders are we have three and a half million citizens! Now, not all of them which, and I mean this the nicest way every time I say I wasn't even in the country for the last election. I was courting my my now British bride in the UK. I spent quite a bit of COVID in other countries between Costa Rica and UK. And so when I got a call from the governor of Utah to come run his organization, say, I don't think I'm your guy. I don't think this is going to work for me. I actually had just accepted a job offer, first time I ever had to renege in my life. And he goes, come I'll give you a long leash, and we want to modernize state government. And that's such a fun cliche word to say, but the first thing I learned, and to directly answer your question after that context, is the amount of stakeholders that you have to bring along in any conversation it's massive. So I've prep board decks, so I've reported up to CEOs, I've engaged with CFOs, but I have the Utah State Legislature is 104 elected officials, and they are my board of directors, and they are my CFO. And anytime I want to progress a concept, I either have to have 104 quick conversations with the 104 leaders, are checking in on what the executive branch HR team is doing,

 

David Turetsky: 10:53

right

 

John Barrand: 10:53

but we have very public committee meetings where I go defend my recommendations, and in that comes the unions, associations, and then state employees. So I have really two massive, overpowering stakeholders to to invest time in the legislature. They control the finances, right? That's my CFO, and then I actually have to engage pretty heavily with with the workforce, which I'm not suggesting is the wrong outcome, but it's a really different outcome in the public sector is I have to convince them, because they can then help convince their legislature to vote for the things that I typically try to make law. It's It's fascinating and, and I know, I know get long winded, but, but I also want to state like our legislature is wonderful and the 22,000 employees are served, I think they get a bad rap. Public Sector gets a bad rap. I spend too many nights out with the highway troopers or walking the correctional facility or spending time with people who place, you know, abused children at family services like we have wonderful talent in the public sector. I think bureaucracy and politics typically undermines that that strong performance, and I think that's one of the reasons I was so attracted this job, was try to take a swipe at improving that for our employee base. It's it's been a wonderful opportunity for sure.

 

David Turetsky: 12:14

One thing I want to probe on with you around this is that the world of public sector has dealt a lot with transparency, whereas now the private sector has to deal with transparency. That's a concept, and I know that doesn't go to the core of what we're gonna be talking about today, but it's kind of getting to the public versus private. We're now dealing with this in the private sector has transparent, you mentioned that you have a lot of stakeholders. Is transparency really a big deal in the world of public sector, where you have to, I mean, as you mentioned, you have 104 legislators you have to talk to, you have to talk to the unions, you have to talk to. Do you think that that's something that we can overcome in the private sector, given that you have to deal with it every day?

 

John Barrand: 12:57

It's a fair question, because, as this became very critical in the HR space. It's been really fun to kick back and say, Oh, check, because as an example, like, right? We post, all of our jobs come posted with the salary. Like, when I read the thought pieces on whatever newsletter I subscribe to, I am so grateful that we are in the space where we've already delivered that. Now, I think it was because we were trying to share a value proposition that wasn't as comfortable as the private sector. But I will say transparency now, I work pretty heavily with our head of tech to drive what should be more transparent. We actually just stood up a privacy office. We have 32 bills last year related to AI and data protection in that space. So we are we? We have to be on the cusp of that where capitalism can run, run, run, and clean it up with a lawsuit. We have a moral obligation to be in front of those. And I'm probably not the best to speak to it, but it's been fun to be ahead of transparency, but also be informed on what data privacy looks like, and it's such a such a narrow opportunity for success. But yeah, we we definitely have to own everything publicly, and it doesn't keep me up at night, as it does some of my my peers and colleagues in the HR space.

 

David Turetsky: 14:18

So everybody, if you want to get in touch with John to get more opinion about the transparency. It's John dot, BAM King,

 

John Barrand: 14:27

Well, transparent, you can find my email really easily, phone number. You can find how much I make very easily, it's it is all out there that's for sure.

 

Announcer: 14:37

Like what you hear so far? Make sure you never miss a show by clicking subscribe. This podcast is made possible by Salary.com, now back to the show.

 

David Turetsky: 14:48

Let's pivot a little bit to the differences in in the HR processes, though, between public and private, and we're going to start talking about performance management and how that's different between public and private.

 

John Barrand: 15:02

Yeah, let's go. So when I when I came in this modernization conversation and the lunches and the meetings with Governor Cox at the time, was, what are the table stakes for HR in modernizing the employee experience? And I was really grateful that he would use those, every one of those is a buzzword. I'm really grateful he used them, because at least let me know that my leader was thinking like that. And I walked in my first day and I said, Hey, team. And by the way, I didn't, of course, interview with any of my downline, so they were meeting me for the first time as a cabinet member.

 

David Turetsky: 15:32

Great

 

John Barrand: 15:32

Hey, can I see performance ratings? And they said, they said, Oh, we don't really have performance ratings. I said, Well, can I see performance evaluations? I want to know what team of inheriting. Like, Oh, we don't really do that. In fact, the last 13 years, we've been on somewhat of a pass fail, and we've only had, they showed me, like, three fails in 13 years. I have a team of 140 and I was like, Oh, okay. So this was the crux of what I think most people assume happens in state government or government is, okay complacency is rewarded, or tenure is important, and my leaders, including those 104 legislature, the president house and the speaker right, all the big titles you need to drop, were refusing to budge on compensational adjustments because of that, that vibe, that feeling, or that aura that was put on, said, Well, we can, we can attempt to stand up right private sector performance management, but I'm going to need some promises from you. So we did a quick audit. We used the state, the state auditor. And they, they came to me. I had no idea what I was doing, I was, it was just bulky. I didn't know who I was offending. I didn't know who has, and probably for the better of the first year. Now, four years in I should be a little smarter. But they brought me an audit from 2010 and said, Hey, before we do this audit in 2021 can you read this?

 

David Turetsky: 16:58

Thank God.

 

John Barrand: 16:59

And this was 11 years prior, and they said we had made recommendations for how to increase performance management in state government. At the time, state government had solved we had three issues. One, we had a manager and Leadership Competency issue, meaning, because no one was rewarded, or even the focus, performance was not important. No one is doing it, right? So why would you develop that skill if no leader was telling you to do it? And I'm making some really broad stereotypes, you know, I served 21 cabinet members, right? I served the governor. Not everyone thinks like this, but the bureaucracy had gotten, gotten

 

Dwight Brown: 17:37

involved with it.

 

John Barrand: 17:38

Yeah, we had an archaic process, meaning Pass Fail was at best. And you have to think about things like sworn officers. Think about the correctional facility. How are you going to introduce performance management in a punitive nature like that? What are you going to do in that space? Right? So that was what we're up against. And the third was we had a very limiting system. We had stood up our own internal HRIS in 2008 and it wasn't even off of a DOS based program. It was off of a beta DOS based program.

 

David Turetsky: 18:05

Awesome.

 

John Barrand: 18:06

So we're still using a beta DOS based so I went said, I need a couple things,

 

David Turetsky: 18:10

yeah,

 

John Barrand: 18:11

and the audit. The audit showed me that the from 2010 that only 8% of our managers were getting trained in any facet. So if you just want to blanket use the word train. What were they? They showed us that 18% and then only 14% of our managers were actually using any sort of record of performance management. We had 3800 managers! So we ran the audit again in 2021 almost the exact same thing in 2021 my first year here, 30% of managers got trained. So from 8% to 30% but the record system, the record keeping system, performance management, had gone from 14% to 16% so not, not nominal change, nothing had really the problem statement was three fold. One, we need to equip managers, right, middle management with the ability to actually lead and manage. We need to solve this the process. I need to introduce a stronger process of performance management, and we needed to get a bigger system. So that first legislative session, I went in and said, Hey, legislature, can we abandon cola? Stop giving us the entitled cola and whatever payroll you set aside. So if it's 3%, ive it to me in pay for performance. And I had never seen a more targeted marketing campaign as to attack that from our, no one wanted, because we had. I hadn't. I hadn't stood anything up. And I'm telling 22,000 employees, I want to abandon what you've been given your whole life and move to performance management process. Wait, you're taking my guaranteed 3%? Swear word, yeah, I'm taking your guaranteed 3%! We're not playing this game anymore, right? And they didn't know me from Adam. I was the private sector villain!

 

David Turetsky: 19:49

Right

 

John Barrand: 19:50

Why would you ever! Right?

 

Dwight Brown: 19:51

right

 

John Barrand: 19:52

So the first pull was securing two other things. One, I asked for a million dollar of head count, so about six heads, to improve manager training. I said, If you give me six heads, I'll make sure that every manager is trained in the state within a year, right? And we'll stand up important principles. The second thing was, I asked for $23 million to buy a new HRIS. I wanted to go buy off the box. That's a really unsexy span for people who need to get elect reelected every two years.

 

Dwight Brown: 20:16

Yeah

 

John Barrand: 20:17

And they did it!

 

Dwight Brown: 20:17

exactly.

 

John Barrand: 20:18

They did it

 

David Turetsky: 20:19

Yeah, but if they knew that you were running a system built on a beta of DOS...

 

Dwight Brown: 20:23

A beta DOS! What is that? like 1938?

 

John Barrand: 20:28

No, we got it. So, so of the three things I needed to progress, I had two of them in the bag. I had now training in the way, and I had my system set up. So I took a year to kind of get those moving. And then went back and said, Hey, let's start exchanging cola for performance management dollars. I had to road show it. Even in my own team, I brought my 26, 28 managers in and said, All right, let's talk about this. And the spear of performance management, HR, was like, now we're good. If we have the option to opt in or out, opt out, can we?

 

David Turetsky: 21:01

Oh great

 

John Barrand: 21:01

And I was, I was a I was a villain. Now, again, these are great people, and the majority of that those people, we now laugh about those conversations three years later, but we had to take a really solid, solid look at what the lay of land was. It was as un-pretty as you could ever have expected. Like the words innovation were about an agility and performance management were about as helpful as the peloton that's been sitting in my basement for two years. Like, just, it's become, right? I hang my clothes on it like, that's it. That's all, right?

 

Dwight Brown: 21:33

right

 

John Barrand: 21:33

So we didn't know how to flex that muscle.

 

Dwight Brown: 21:36

I can only imagine the uphill battle. Because you're, you're, I mean, let's face it, the we all get into our ruts of things, and you've got people who have been with the government for 25 years where they haven't known anything like that!

 

John Barrand: 21:53

yeah.

 

Dwight Brown: 21:53

And so you know, coming in, being the villain, and you've got to innovate on top of that. You got to layer in technology along with that, that's a huge lift.

 

John Barrand: 22:04

I had no idea where, oh, how to do it. I and I think that's one of the issues I find with much most HR professionals, is we expect perfect, and we let that become the enemy of good, right? That's a great quote for getting things started, and we knew we just need to get started. Correspondingly, a lot of times you'll hear public sector refer to, well, we're underpaid relative to our position. And I wanted to go prove that as well. And I think

 

David Turetsky: 22:24

Right this will speak to a group from Salary.com or former consultants in this space. When I when I came in, I started Procter and Gamble in a comp role. I loved it. Expatriate compensation, man, it was fun. And comp specialists, comp managers, have a special place in my heart. We only had external matches for one in every four roles in 2021 so I doubled down my internal investment on what comp matches will look like. The end of that story is as of now, we just re released in July of 24 we have three of every four jobs are in a match. So I can match to 87% of my population, and I was able to use that to tell a very compelling story. Is, Hey, you tell me legislatures, Governor, that you want to be 10% below market medium? Well, I can now tell you that 23% of our population is more than 30% below market, right? And they had never been informed these stories because we we were really good at compliance. We were really good at institutional rigidity, but we weren't good at telling story. So I'm in the background pushing external alignment, right? There's only, I believe there's only two levers for comp, external market comparison and internal performance management. Those should be the two main levers for, for, for moving comp forward. And I silently and quietly attacked the external markets and really engaged in that space. We we ended up investing, I know the end story, in the last four years, the average state employee in the state of Utah has gotten a 29% increase. We've outpaced the private sector here in Utah by about eight or nine percentage points. They've all kind of average around 20% over the last four fiscal years.

 

John Barrand: 24:05

And it's because we had a, we had a really poorly

 

David Turetsky: 24:05

Wow. treated workforce, and they did not trust that standing up performance management was going to go the way we want it to. So Right

 

John Barrand: 24:16

We had a lot of things in those first, first 18 months to solve for. It was, it was a it was fascinating. It was a fascinating lift. We just got through our first year. And maybe I can, I can get in the space where I can tell you what the first year we're only a year in. And so

 

David Turetsky: 24:33

sure

 

John Barrand: 24:33

in 2021, we ran the law. It became a law. Everyone was worried about it becoming a law quickly. They typically take root the next fiscal year. We pushed it a full fiscal so it didn't become law performance management and pay for performance didn't become a law till July 1, 2023 which meant we just wrapped up in in 2024 our first year of performance management.

 

David Turetsky: 24:55

Right

 

John Barrand: 24:55

I'm pretty pleased with some of the outcomes, but also helps give us direction as to where we should go.

 

Dwight Brown: 25:00

So I do have a question, how did you sell performance management? I mean, you, you're going through the big change, and you're saying, we need to do this. What were the biggest selling points that you had? Because I think it ties back directly to just selling the same processes within companies, too. So I'm fascinated by how you got there.

 

John Barrand: 25:26

2021, 2022, of course, we haven't laid the context of what was happening in the world at the time, right?

 

Dwight Brown: 25:33

Yeah.

 

John Barrand: 25:34

So I think there was really two selling points to two groups of people. We're the youngest state in the Union by about three years. But our workforce, my workforce, my 22,000 people workforce, is actually skews seven years older than the average the workforce average in in the state of Utah, we're an older workforce. So we knew that we were about to start turning on the talent right? We the boomer generation. It really is happening. We I read that every day of workforce analytics, so I knew we were gonna have a workforce problem. I knew that the younger generation, or the newer generation, typically turns over every three to four years.

 

David Turetsky: 26:11

Right

 

John Barrand: 26:12

So I said, we have to become competitive as quick as possible. We were wrestling with return to office, which certainly was leading to massive amounts of attrition in some of our professional services organizations, and we honestly had a mess. And I, I would go to the legislature and say, would you want tenure or do you want performance, right?

 

David Turetsky: 26:33

right

 

John Barrand: 26:33

So we have a very positive incentive structure for those who stay a long time. You, you know that you, you may have never worked for public sector, but you know that if you stay a long time, you retire with some good money!

 

David Turetsky: 26:43

Of course!

 

Dwight Brown: 26:44

yeah

 

John Barrand: 26:44

I started abandoning those principles to say, let's solve the workforce problem. The second thing I did is I went to my actual employees, and I'm telling you, we road showed it up from Logan to St George. We went all over the place, and I put myself in front of it as the chief HR officer and said, you all work with a performer that you, someone that you don't like. You all work with someone who makes your world harder. We have three pass fails or three fails in the last 13 years of my organization. I assure you there's better way for you to get better at your job. I wanted, I kept saying, I want to make poor performers uncomfortable, and I would get amen, amen, let's I'd go to the associations. I'd go to the Fraternal Order of Police, and say, we agree with that. Well, the only way to make poor performers uncomfortable is to hold them more accountable, right? And so many people expect performance management. I think performance management exists for three reasons. One, to align mission and vision, right? Two, to allow managers to actually manage. And three, growth. Right? Growth for the employee. I just, I didn't see any of those existing inside the public sector, and so I would change, I would use one of those three criteria, depending on who I was talking to. The employees loved hearing that they could have growth. Again they were so browbeat and and we've been put in such a box as to what public sector is that when you start talking to them about growth opportunities, they are way in on it.

 

David Turetsky: 28:09

Sure.

 

John Barrand: 28:09

Well, guess what I need to do? I need to understand what growth you need through performance metrics and performance management. And they slowly started buying in. So we we won. We won with them in order for legislators to actually pass the bill.

 

David Turetsky: 28:22

John, did you feel the need to be able to help with things like you were talking about before, with training and with re skilling and with up skilling, so that you know it was we see the gaps that exist, or we want to see the gaps that exist in the performance management, but we're going to help you. We're going to solve those problems, and we're going to give you the skills necessary to be able to do that.

 

John Barrand: 28:45

It's the first time that I think a lot, and I again, I'm only four years in that I think state employees watch the exchange actually be credible or beneficial for them. Now they've exchanged sick leave for in for health insurance on the other side of retirement, they've watched that get diminished. They're used to every time there's a conversation about their about their dollars, their money

 

David Turetsky: 29:08

Something gets taken away.

 

Dwight Brown: 29:09

Yeah

 

John Barrand: 29:11

our training in person, right? Like we are, like, Wait, you're investing in us? Oh, you're standing up a talent mobility team? Wow, while you're buying a payroll system that I can actually finally clock in on my my phone? Wow, you guys are throwing us a few shillings here? This is great! So I think the trust that happened between one side of the exec, right, the legislative branch and the executive branch, and I think it became really imperative for my mid level managers to see that. And again, I had to walk the halls at the correctional facility. I had, I went out on the midnight rides with our police officers and said, Teach me why you're so jaded. And once they started trusting the exchange because this loud mouth, arrogant chief HR officer, right? I really made some promises, and when they we actually started delivering. We just gave out $43, million in performance management dollars. And I'm like, This is new for us. Well, we're hiring, we're heightening our expectations for you, and this is how, right?

 

David Turetsky: 30:15

So did the police actually have you cuffed in the back of the car, or did they transport you to the sheriff's office or to the jail or?

 

Dwight Brown: 30:23

no, that was after one of his boy band concerts!

 

David Turetsky: 30:25

Bu dun dun. Good job.

 

John Barrand: 30:30

State troopers are made with different DNA than I

 

David Turetsky: 30:31

Oh my gosh, yeah

 

John Barrand: 30:37

And they deserve to make more than all three of us combined in any given year. am. You know, we've gone out on DUI nights. I've gone out on

 

David Turetsky: 30:52

Oh my god, yeah, and the correctional officers too, and the firefighters and the ambulance I mean, all the first responders are just such a brave, unbelievable group of humans.

 

John Barrand: 31:09

It's wonderful to serve them. And they came back to this performance management bit. They would come back and adult probation and parole violation nights. We've where we say, Hold on. I as a trooper, you're gonna reward me now. You're. What's the value proposition for as a trooper, if I have to give 100 speeding tickets a week, I meet that criteria? No, no, I'm not talking about transactional, punitive rewards. We went and taught the correctional facility. We

 

David Turetsky: 31:30

right just moved the prison together, collectively, up near the Salt go arrest the bad guys. They put me in a bulletproof vest, and Lake airport, and the troopers and all the right? The Tax Commission, we taught them, we want to focus on the how, not the what, and that was really informative for them to deliver core values. Governor Cox teaches 19 ways he sees the world. We deconstructed it and built it back together with value based performance management. So we I'm really heavy on the how and not the what, and that seems to be they say, Hey, don't get out of the car. And trust me, I don't! taking. Now, of course, we can challenge how you evaluate the what, right? So in the in the coming years, the only data I have for you after the first year is that we've check marked 87% of our managers have been trained. Do I know the quality of the training? I don't yet. I can tell you that 82%, we have a requirement for quarterly reviews to happen. That's 88,000 quarterly reviews needed to happen. We were 82% of those Like they. They're good and great men and women who have far were met! Like I know that we're doing quarterly. Do I know the value of the quarterly review? I don't yet, but I can tell you that we're really aggressively attacking calibration of goals, meaning each individual makes their own goals. And when I go to lunch with the Board of Pardons and parole, or when I take a meeting with UDOT and all their engineers, right? We're talking about the how, and it's, um, it's really, it's really more DNA for bravery than I ever will. And we are. I'm so lifted the workforce. We've seen an uptick. In fact, I have the data. I'm sorry, I'm gonna get distracted. I want to make sure I get it to you accurately. We've seen a 5% uptick in sufficient recognition, a 5% uptick in the employee view of professional growth. So employees have responded, now that they've seen what it is, they've responded and told us, yeah, like we like this and we want more of it. I just don't grateful that there are people who choose to do that job. think we had trusted them with this, and we didn't have the framework. To your point, there wasn't a training team that existed to help them. There wasn't an avenue to reward good performers, and all we had to do was teach correct principles and let them govern themselves, right? And it's become really helpful. Hey, are you listening to this and thinking to yourself, Man, I wish I could talk to David about this. Well, you're in luck. We have a special offer for listeners of the HR Data Labs podcast, a free half hour call with me about any of the topics we cover on the podcast or whatever is on your mind. Go to salary.com/hrdlconsulting to schedule your free 30 minute call today. So let's talk about data for a moment, John, because data will help them and will help us contextualize. How do you bring data into the conversation with all these stakeholders, and how do you prove it? You know what? How do you show them the ROI, you know what? What kind of training or what kind of storytelling are you doing on the data side to be able to, as you mentioned, you know, these, these 5% upticks, they're great! They're progress.

 

John Barrand: 34:24

Yeah

 

David Turetsky: 34:25

How do you how do you give contextual or, how do you contextualize these improvements for not just the legislature, but for all your stakeholders?

 

John Barrand: 34:33

Yeah, I have focused on two right now with probably a third in motion. One, I'd call it the poor performer funnel, meaning we know that managers are actually acting more quickly on poor performance, because there's a requirement to be in a room with them quarterly. We had a 90% increase in our formal performance improvement plans in one year, a 90% increase. Now that's that's really easy to vilify, and if you're aggregating take that comment and say, the head of HR for the state of Utah sees a 90% up taking PIPs, that's a good thing. Now I don't necessarily see it as a as a good thing. And by the way, almost 100% of those are happening within the first year of hire. So we hire 2200 people a year. So guess what's happening is we're identifying, we're evaluating talent a little more quickly. Now I got to be careful, because I'm not yet to the point where I can evaluate the quality of that. We have 3800 managers, right? I can't get into every one of those just yet. We have the highest case log. So when, when my ER team, when my legal team gets Hey, can you review this termination? We've had the highest tick mark of is there previous documentation for this conversation, that we've ever had! So and I'm talking about percent of a flow that comes to us, but also total count. So you're asking me data informed questions that help give us directional, right? Are we directionally heading the right A lot of this is still very surface level. I own way?

 

David Turetsky: 35:57

Yeah Yeah that. I'm not. I can't get you to quality of hire yet. I can't,

 

John Barrand: 36:00

I really want to challenge what, what's happening but I can tell you that every signal that we need to see is directionally moving towards stronger performance management. In the poor performance funnel, right? They're acting sooner. They're documenting more, more appropriately, and making it easier for them to either to exit or PIP their employees, and some of that's even our kick, right? Like I acknowledge that when I engage with my HR teams or HR colleagues across across the country, you know, lot of organizations are moving away from annual performance reviews. They're moving away from PIPs themselves, right? They're modernizing in different ways. This is where we are right now. I think the second one would be employee satisfaction. So we can definitely we use the Organizational Health Index. We send out seven surveys across the employee life cycle. There are usually about four or five questions on the way in, of six months in three years in, on the way out. And then we annually survey them. We have 13,000 of our employees respond this year, and we've definitely seen the uptick, like I said, in professional growth, meaning their goals are actually helping them grow. We've seen the uptick in sufficient recognition, so not just money, but also how we express gratitude as leaders. And we've seen an uptick in positive experiences in the workforce. That that was, by the way, with the underlay of return to office! That right, and how, how devastating that's been to a lot of the workforce. We're seeing upticks that, again, are outpacing according to my those quarters of reviews, and I really want to get in that private sector colleagues, we're winning because, we're winning with the workforce. We've also seen our applicant flow space. So again, quality of hire, quality of conversation, increase. People are hearing that if you're a good performer, quality of termination, even with, right?

 

Dwight Brown: 37:58

Right. there's a place for you. Now, the third thing I think that I'm

 

John Barrand: 37:59

Um, my team is stewing on it. We just hired some some some data analytics team. I'm standing up talent going to really wrestle with, and maybe we do this again in 18 mobility team the next eight months.

 

David Turetsky: 38:05

Excellent

 

John Barrand: 38:06

So we can internally share talent across months, would be, I really want to figure out the quality of the our 21 agencies. But I can't speak to it yet, but I know directionally, that's where I'm going. So conversation.

 

David Turetsky: 38:13

John, you're having the, what I'll call mature conversations that every HR department should have about, how do we keep ourselves sustained? How do we make sure our stakeholders understand we're doing the right things? And how do we make sure that the employees understand that we're trying to take care of them? So it sounds like you're on the right path and you're doing the right things, and this seems like it's going to be a really cool journey for not just you, but for every state employee in the state, great State of Utah.

 

John Barrand: 38:42

Yeah, I know that I use I language a lot because I'm really proud of the work that I and my team are doing. But when I really think about it, as an HR professional, I'd rather be a business leader than an HR leader. Although I'm affectionately in love with all the HR nerds in the world, I think we need more of them.

 

Dwight Brown: 38:58

speaking our language.

 

John Barrand: 39:00

But I'm having conversations with with my leaders, my agency leaders. Just yesterday. I'll be careful here. We are actively involved in a conversation about organizational restructure, because now that we have, and we're only a year in, now that we have a framework for managers to manage, we're trying to figure out, are we, is our middle management too rich? Are we too Right? Not too rich in compensation. But what's that ratio? Should it be one manager to every five direct reports? Right now it's one to 2.2 like, are we a little Are we a little fat in middle management? Or how do we unpack that frozen middle so it's not just an HR process, but now I have a business leader saying, hey, now I have flexibility to have bigger conversations that could potentially save taxpayer dollars, which seems to be really important, or could actually move the structure of my organization, and that's a really fun place to be. In there. That's not a politically driven conversation, that's an operationally efficient, driven conversation. I love putting my leaders in that space. Now we're in the early stages. Nothing will probably happen, right? And it will get political as we go down that road. But for a leader to say, Hey, can I chew on this with you because of what you've done that makes it, that's the TED Talk for me.

 

David Turetsky: 40:10

That's bringing HR to the table and making you part of the business.

 

John Barrand: 40:14

Yeah, it's a lot of fun to serve here. It's a lot of fun.

 

David Turetsky: 40:26

So I think we're gonna have to do, John is bring you back in a year and see how did everything work? Granted, your Governor Cox will have won another

 

Dwight Brown: 40:35

election

 

David Turetsky: 40:36

another election, right? It's only a couple weeks away, but, yeah, but then you know, also, you know, how did things progress and where are things going?

 

John Barrand: 40:43

Let's, let's do it, whether it's formally, informally. I one thing I don't think HR professionals, particularly in the public sector, do, is, I don't think they tell their story very compelling. That's why you don't have a lot of public sector people come speak with you. Now, I believe I'm a loner. I'm a be a public sector guy for a few more years, like I like it, but I will head back to private sector. But every time I speak at a conference, I always ask public sector, private sector, and it's typically 25 to 30% of the public sector, raise their hand. They're out there, and they're in these meetings, and they're in these conversations. I just wish more of them would speak up. And I really want to galvanize public sector to to be more at the forefront of what these tricky conversations can be like. Innovation happens when you have scarcity resources. If there was scarcity of resources in spades, it's in government! Like, we don't we don't overspend, right? Like, right? So we have to innovate in really creative ways. And the talent within the public sector, particularly in HR, is tremendous, and I'm so grateful to be counted among some right now. So bring me back. Let's have keep the conversation going, and let's set up that forum.

 

David Turetsky: 41:47

Awesome, John, thank you so much.

 

John Barrand: 41:49

It's nice to spend some time with you, and thanks for putting up with me for a little while. No outro singing though!

 

David Turetsky: 41:54

Dwight, you're going to be baritone.

 

John Barrand: 42:00

Very good. Well, thanks for your time.

 

David Turetsky: 42:02

Thank you very much, John. Thank you, Dwight.

 

Dwight Brown: 42:03

Thank you! Appreciate it. You guys have a good rest of your day.

 

David Turetsky: 42:07

Thank you all for listening, take care and stay safe.

 

Announcer: 42:10

That was the HR Data Labs podcast. If you liked the episode, please subscribe. And if you know anyone that might like to hear it, please send it their way. Thank you for joining us this week, and stay tuned for our next episode. Stay safe.